Important Read for HH/iMog

[Mateuns]

http://ffximath.risen-guild.com/

Bards, unless your DDs are absolutely the worst gimps on the planet, sing double march.

The point of this post is to explore the difference between Valor Minuet IV and Advancing March. I know a lot of people, in both merit settings, and end-game melee burn events (limbus, einherjar, dynamis, salvage) believe that the best bard songs to use are Minuet4 and Victory March. As such, I feel that not many people would ever debate Victory March as a song, so it is going to be assumed as the first song. Also, the Haste spell from a rdm or whm will be assumed. In any case, most people are wrong, in most situations.

If you are unfamiliar with how Haste works, you should check out Haste. Also, all the following calculations will be assuming proper instrument for both songs, and 5 merits into Minuet. This results in 9% haste vs 66 attack.

To begin with, I will assume a player has 0% haste on their gear. This is the absolute worst case for Advancing March.

So, we are going from 26% haste (11 march2, 15 haste) to 35% haste (+9% march1). This is:

[1/(1-.35) - 1/(1-.26)]/[1/(1-.26)] = (1.538 – 1.351)/1.351 = .187/1.351 = .138

This means we’re getting a 13.8% increase to swing rate by gaining Advancing March, once we already have Victory March and Haste. This of course means both a 13.8% increase in melee “white” damage (auto-swings), and a 13.8% increase in the rate that we gain TP, which means a 13.8% increase in the rate that we weaponskill – this is equivalent to a 13.8% increase in WS damage.

Now then, attack is one of those things that the exact formulas are relatively unknown for, but we can at least see what percentage increase Minuet is giving to our attack value. For 66 attack to be a 13.8% increase to our attack value, our attack must be equal or lower to 66/.138. This value is 478.26 attack. So, if we have 0% haste on our gear AND have less than 479 attack, then Valor Minuet IV is better than Advancing March. So, how realistic is it for a DD to hit 479 attack?

A naked Hume sam/war with just a GK equipped and 0 merits in GK has 346 attack. So let’s look where we stand to gain attack (without using any haste gear!)

Amemet Mantle +1 = +15attk, +2str.

Haubergeon = +10attk, +5str.

O. Kote = +20attk.

Tiphia Sting = +2attk.

Merits = +16attk.

Marine F Boots = +3str.

Royal Knight’s Breeches = +3attk, +2str.

Rajas Ring = +5str.

That sums up to +69 attack and +17 str, or +83 attack. This puts us up to 429 attack.

Now, assuming we have berserk up exactly 60% of the time, that averages out to .6*.25 = 15% increase in attack, on average. 429*1.15 = 493.

Granted, I used a person who had access to +20attk gloves as well as berserk in my example. But I didn’t use food at all and I really could pretty easily get attack higher than that, if I so desired.

So, moving on, let’s look at a character that is still pretty poorly geared, but has the easily accessible haste gear. For this comparison, I am going to assume that any melee DD can manage at least 12% haste on their gear (Turban, Dusk Gloves, Swift Belt for non-mnk. Turban, Fuma, Purple Belt for monk).

We are now moving from 38% haste to 47% haste. Redoing the math from earlier:

[1/(1-.47) - 1/(1-.38)]/[1/(1-.38)] = (1.887 – 1.613)/1.613 = .274/1.613 = .170

So now, advancing march is a 17% increase in damage, instead of 13.8%. Moving on, we get 66/.17 = 388.24 attack. All we need now is 388 attack for Advancing March to be more valuable. I really don’t think I need to list any gear or merits for people to realize that 42 attack is pretty easy for a naked character to gain with gear/merits. And for that matter, a meat mithkabob alone gives +60.

The better gear you get (adding more attack OR more haste both make Advancing March even better in relation to Minuet IV) , the bigger the difference becomes, but even with an extremely undergeared character, Advancing March is still equal to or better than Minuet IV.

I refrained from making a statement as to what the percentage increase would be from Minuet IV because it isn’t so black and white. All of these calculations assumed that Minuet gave an equal boost to weaponskills as it did to your white damage. If for some reason this is not the case (single-hit WSes such as a Samurai uses), then the gap instantly becomes insurmountable. Assuming it is the case though, a base attack value is needed to be able to say exactly what the increase Minuet gives. Since this number is variable based on your other gear, it isn’t possible to generally say -how much- better Advancing March is than Minuet IV. But as long as your attack is higher than 388, then Advancing March will win out over Minuet IV at 12% haste on gear. Most decently geared players will have both more haste than this (which will very likely make it so as long as you have capped skill, March will win) and significantly more attack.

[Mateuns]

Also, to address a legitimate point that Airius made concerning the rate at which mobs gain tp:

His argument was that Min4 would benefit more in certain situations (which it sometimes will, make no mistake), because the faster the attack rate, the higher the rate at which mobs GAIN tp but not necessarily USE tp moves. A valid point, but look at it this way: is the mob really using many more tp attacks overall? Or is it just that they are using the same amount in a shorter time span (theoretically, mobs rarely tp as soon as they hit 100% unless they are below 25%)? If you think about it, the 2nd case is the actual correct one, except for maybe one or two extra tp attacks saved from the addition attack Min4 gives.

HOWEVER: March undoubtedly increases the killspeed much more than Min does, and what does this mean? Less time for mobs to use tp attacks, less time for mobs to actually ATTACK, and less time casting shadows (more dmg), among other things. Considering the fact that many mobs in the game do not have particularly threatening TP moves that aren't stunnable, it makes much more sense to simply go with double March and "risk" additional mob tp attacks. As I explained earlier, this isn't necessarily the case, as mobs use TP moves at random times from 100-300%.

Consider a zerg: given the logic Airius presented, mobs would be constantly TPing and destroying any alliances that try to take them down in zerg fashion. This clearly does not happen, and in fact zergs are among the most effective ways of taking down mobs (probably THE most effective).

In conclusion, it would seem that outside of a few select fights, Marchx2 is better in every conceivable way than March/Min.

[Mateuns]

Capped attack is not the reason why the effect of ATT diminishes with higher ATT (i.e. During the use of berserk). The reason is because the means by which ATT translates into DMG is such that the benefit of X ATT will mean less as you have more ATT.

WS DMG: (Base DMG from Weapon + fSTR + WS MODS)*(fTP)*(pDIF)

ATT only affects the (pDIF) portion in this manner: (Your ATT/Enemy DEF)
* Note: pDIF also takes into account c-ratio and other factors such as level correlation, so it's not simply (ATT/DEF). The (ATT/DEF) portion is simply refered to as ratio.

Look at a case in which you have 500ATT and the enemy has 337DEF. This translates into (500/337) = 1.4836. If you increase that amount by 20ATT, you get (520/337) = 1.543.

Now look at a case in which you have 600ATT and the enemy has 337DEF. This translates into (600/337) = 1.7804. If you add 20ATT, it becomes (620/337) = 1.8397.

Now compare the relative increase in "DMG":

(1.543/1.4836) = 1.04 (Roughly 4% increase in ratio)
(1.8397/1.7804) = 1.03 (Roughly 3% increase in ratio)

As you can see, it appears that having more ATT will diminish the effect of ATT until the point at which it caps. Someone else can confirm if they wish.

[Arthars]

yep march x2 is the best

only argument is really the amount of TP you feed mobs

i personally always ask for 2x march whem im on drk and pwn shits in merit

on a HNM side, or even omega or ultima, there is high risk and minuet will come in handy so you dont hit for lmao 0s

in a zerg a soul voice march will hit cap (2 handers with hasso) unless people dont have haste gears -_- and might as well sing minuet as 2nd song

[Mateuns]

on a HNM side, or even omega or ultima, there is high risk and minuet will come in handy so you dont hit for lmao 0s

in a zerg a soul voice march will hit cap (2 handers with hasso) unless people dont have haste gears -_- and might as well sing minuet as 2nd song

yep, the pdif is too low for march to be as good as it normally would be against HNMs. Interesting point concerning zergs, hadn't considered that.